BBC Radio 4 Today outrage as guest says 'trans people also attacked' during antisemitism debate after Bondi Beach horror

Sajid Akram, 50, and his son, Naveed, 24, have been named as the perpetrators of the massacre. The youngest of the two has since regained consciousness in hospital, while Mr Akram was found dead at the scene.

The Bondi Beach attack has reignited debates surrounding the rise in antisemitism worldwide and whether widespread anti-Israel demonstrations have fuelled and encouraged violence and hatred towards the Jewish community.

On Tuesday's Today, historian Simon Schama reflected on the history of Jewish expulsion and persecution dating back centuries as he reflected on the incident with Mr Robinson. "There's this profound sense that (Jews) may have lived in the illusion of safety," he explained.

Mr Schama went on to say the stance and protestations of the "anti-Zionist movement have morphed into a hatred of Jews".

Mr Robinson interjected, however, to put forward the argument that the history of Jewish persecution and the Holocaust is being used as a "trump card" to "stop people having strong and passionate opinions" about Israel.

"Nobody in the Jewish community, me included, thinks that there is a ban on criticising the Israeli government," Mr Schama replied, before dismissing the suggestion that "all Jews should bear guilt" for what is happening in Gaza.

He also insisted that the Israel-Hamas conflict should not be compared to the Holocaust. "People just have to take stock of what's coming out of their mouths," he added.

Mr Robinson challenged Mr Schama as he pointed out that there have also been attacks on the Muslim community in recent years, to which Mr Schama agreed that those attacks were "shocking" too, but "what happened to six million Jews" couldn't be ignored. "It's a unique horror, as Winston Churchill put it," he said.

The Today presenter then welcomed author, historian, and human rights barrister Philippe Sands onto the show, asking him if he shared "that sense of anxiety and fear" that so many Jews possess right now.

"I personally don’t, but I understand that there are many people who do, and I respect that," Mr Sands replied. "I mean, I’m, like everyone, shocked by what happened in Bondi Beach."

Mr Sands went on to explain that he had visited the Australian tourist destination in May and that he had conversations with acquaintances in the area who had all been left "very shocked by what’s happened... but they sort of expected it".

He went on: "So I’m very respectful of what Simon has said, but my perception actually is different. And I want to pick up on one of your questions to him, which is the targeting of particular groups.

"It’s absolutely the case that there is a rise in antisemitism. The attacks in Belgium, in Manchester, in Australia, in other places, there’s a pattern here that is really worrisome.

"But Jews are not the only community that are targeted," he added, before reeling off the remark that would go on to spark controversy among listeners.

Mr Sands said: "And right now, whether it’s Muslims that you mentioned, or immigrants, or trans people, or black people, other communities also have their stories, which are, I think, not to be minimised.

"And I’m very uncomfortable, I’ve got to say, with coming back to the horrors that I wrote about in East West Street and that decimated my family. I am concerned about the use of what happened between '33 and '45 as some sort of a trump card, to use your words."

Mr Robinson did challenge Mr Sands' claim. "Even when people are gunned down on a beach?" he asked.

The BBC presenter continued: "Yes, of course, you can point out that trans people or Muslims have suffered prejudice... That is nothing like the attack that we saw at Eden Park, nothing like what we saw on Bondi Beach."

Mr Sands weighed back in: "Completely shocking. I mean, I found it extremely distressing. And I have to say, also very triggering... These kinds of attacks, they definitely trigger in exactly the way that Simon Sharma has said.

"But I’m acutely conscious, because of the work that I do around the world, that there are so many other communities that are subject to horrors."

After reeling off a handful of human rights cases he's working on, Mr Sands explained further: "And I think it’s always important, without seeking to minimise in any way the horror of what happened a few days ago on Bondi Beach, that let’s not forget the other communities around the world who are on the receiving end of absolute horrors right now."

As his final probe, Mr Robinson asked Mr Sands for his thoughts on policing the language used on marches and demonstrations that may be construed as advocating for violence or hatred towards a specific group, in this case, the Jewish community.

"It’s really complicated, and it’s really difficult. Anyone who says it’s simple, this or that, one way or the other, black or white, it’s not. There’s a real complex balancing exercise," he replied.

"But on balance, I tend to come down in favour of free speech, because when you ban speech, it doesn’t disappear. It simply goes underground. And I think that it is even more pernicious when it is unseen and unstated, and not public.

"But there are limits to that. And the limit, principally, is if speech gives rise to a violent reaction that causes people to be targeted or harmed in a physical sense, then absolutely, it’s time to step in.

"But the challenge always is establishing that and proving that. How do you show that words coming out of a person’s mouth cause actual physical harm? That’s the difficulty that we have as a society. And as I said, and I think we all know, it’s really complex."

Genuine question: if any minority group was targeted and slaughtered, would people say, “Yeah, but other groups suffer problems too”? Or does it only happen when it’s Jews? pic.twitter.com/Nh0oeQOEzi

— Hadley Freeman (@HadleyFreeman) December 16, 2025

Clips of the interview have since gone viral on social media, with several listeners taking issue with Mr Sands' decision to shift focus on other communities following such a horrific targeted terror attack on Jews.

"This is truly shocking. None of these other 'communities' mentioned are being massacred on a regular basis. I presume this is Phillipe Sands? Damn him," one X user fumed in response to the interview.

A second asked: "Genuine question: if any minority group was targeted and slaughtered, would people say, 'Yeah, but other groups suffer problems too'? Or does it only happen when it’s Jews?"

"What a pillock... He waters down the Bondi massacre and calls for free speech to 'globalise the intifada' while supporting trans activism, which is all about 'no debate'. Confused wet liberal," a third hit out.

"I heard this in the car and almost crashed by eye-rolling so hard. Is there a BBC style guide that say trans has to be wedged into *every single conversation* regardless of relevance?" a fourth raged.

And a fifth echoed: "For god's sake... whatabouteryduhtrans when talking about a mass murder terrorist event is just wild. Who the f*** is that clown anyway?"

Elsewhere, a sixth took aim at the corporation behind Today: "I'm getting tired of saying this but we really don't hate the BBC enough."

And another commented: "Starmer's close friend Philippe Sands, who actually chose to conflate what happened on Bondi Beach with 'what happens to trans people'. (Nick did challenge his comparison tbf)." (sic)